Why There Can Never Be a Successful Batman and Robin Movie
This debate frequently arises in my household and on Batman message boards but I don’t know if there’s ever been a conclusive answer to, Why There Can Never Be a Successful Batman and Robin Movie. The unfortunate thing about being a Batman comic fan is realizing that the people who make movies out of your favorite book are not necessarily aiming the film at you. Like all big companies, they’re looking to bring in the largest amount of money that they possibly can.
The Batman movie history is fraught with wins and losses; the 1989 Tim Burton rendition of Batman was a fairly good interpretation of the Bat, considering Burton reportedly hadn’t ever cracked open a comic book.* In my opinion, anyway, for a film adaptation of a world as vast as the realm of Batman, it was – for all intents and purposes – a W in the movie category. I’ll also give a W to Batman Returns because they integrated Catwoman and Penguin; characterization wasn’t over the top or even cheesy, considering how easy it is to cross that line. There was still some things wrong with it but all in all, an enjoyable movie, from a Batfan standpoint.
The franchise started to go downhill with Batman Forever. For one, they got Val Kilmer to play Bruce and the switch to a blond main character didn’t go over as well as say, when the Bond franchise chose to do this to 007. There was something sort of icky about Jim Carrey portraying the Riddler and the movie had an overall patina of wrongness; of trespassing against all that is right with Batman. I would say ‘don’t get me started on Batman and Robin…’ but this is really the crux of my argument.
Admittedly, it has been a few years since I subjected myself to the utter Fail that is the movie starring Robin. At the time, I saw it for one reason alone: George Clooney. Yum. But by God, that was awful. I mean, we didn’t need the nipples on the Batsuit, let alone a Robin, aged about 17, who was as annoying and petulant as a five year old. They butchered Poison Ivy and Bane and went overboard on the Blacklight sets. I’m not even sure what the purpose of all that neon was, anyway. If you were any sort of true Batman fan, then this movie ruined everything for you. It was a travesty unto comic book movies.
But the question is this: why will America never accept a Batman movie, with the character of Robin, if done “correctly”? And by that I mean, of course, that we’d follow Dick Grayson from the time of his tragic orphanage at such a young age and his invitation into the home of Bruce Wayne/induction as Batman’s sidekick. Nolan has done such a great job with the last two films in terms of overall interpretation and avoidance of cheese and camp that I’d admittedly be wary for them to try for this storyline. The main problem is that a movie with Robin will always hearken back to the ultra-campy 60s TV show. For many fans, they cannot help but think of the Adam West/Burt Ward duo in any sort of seriousness. This would then spoil all the hard work Nolan has put into Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. Why ruin a good thing?
The second reason, and possibly the most important, is because Americans cannot accept the idea of a grown man – a single grown man who dons a cowl and a cape to fight crime – living with and fighting alongside a boy. In the lore of Batman, we know that Bruce and Dick develop quite a bond over the years but we know it’s simply fatherly. Though there may be implications depending on the era, I do not think it was ever meant to be construed as anything else.
This flies in other comic book adaptations; off the top of my head, Dick Tracy. In the 1990 Warren Beatty film version, Tracy “adopts” Kid and it doesn’t seem weird at all.** The reason I think this worked? Tracy had Tess Trueheart in his life. So the addition of a young boy to his life was like starting a family. But if any director tried to add Dick
Grayson into the life of Bruce Wayne, I fear that America’s underlying fears about homophobia would be the main reason the movie may not do so well. I find this both appalling and pathetic.
As a fan, one who has done a lot of reading of the comics themselves and theory books about Batman, I feel ultimately quite sad that we may never see the Dynamic Duo in action on the big screen in a way that would be satisfying.
I suppose it best to accept this fact and be happy that Nolan has done such a good job with the last few movies. In the same way that a lot of people were wary of Ledger’s Joker and he turned out to be wildly popular, it may be the case that we just don’t know what we’d like. If it was done right, a Batman and Robin could prove me wrong. But I fear that the majority of movie-goers who aren’t die-hard comic fans just aren’t ready for such a thing.
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I have a hard time with Robin in the comics, much less seeing him in the movies. I tip my hat to Nolan for saying they’ll never be a Robin in his movies; however, with the money to be made it’s just a matter of time. And who knows…maybe it will be awesome.
Although I agree that the concept of Batman having a Robin in Nolans movies, aka the Nolan-verse, will probably not happen, I think if they were to take the right angle and put Robin in in the right way, the movie could be spectacular. In the Nolanverse, which is dark on it’s own, adding Robin wouldnt make much sense, but if they did enough movies to where they got to the addition of Tim Drake as Robin, I think they film would fare much better. I’ve always thought that Drake seemed the best Robin, partly due to his era as Robin being the darkest and most fitting to the Bat universe yet. But that’s just my opinion, and after all, I am more of a Green Lantern fan, so maybe my opinion isn’t warranted here.lol.
I think you make a good point, that Drake would work well in a Nolan-verse movie. (Your opinion is always welcome, btw!) The problem would be chronology. Would they ever skip that many years ahead in the lore of the comic for the sake of a good movie?
I’m sorry I’m late to the party, but I would like to offer a solution, as the movies really don’t overlap with comic book continuity, they don’t need to have Dick or Jason as Robin before they have Tim. If Tim is the direction they want to take Robin and I admit for the Nolan films he seems like the most fitting Robin they can. Comic fans will probably end up being divided over tim fans and dick fans (who might rightfully feel a bit cheated) but if the movie was good I think everyone would come round, because doing Robin right is really really hard, and doing Dick right is even harder.
yeah, the only way they could introduce him is if they did at least 3 more movies, the first having dick, the second with jason, the third with tim, otherwise it wouldnt be that great in my eyes. I also think Jason could fit in the nolanverse pretty well too.
I think we just don’t have the time to properly build the relationship between Batman and Robin in a 2 hour movie to have it come off right. In the comics we’ve had decades, but suddenly putting a kid in the line of duty would look a little rushed. And he would have to be young, the whole dynamic from the comics is, to me, based off this shared suffering, so Robin needs to have lost his parents around the same age. There’s also this stigma towards showing Bruce as a real person who needs a friend. He’s too *H@RDC0RE* for friends. ::sigh::
I agree that we sometimes get the idea that Bruce is too hardcore for friends. But, what then, is Alfred?
In the Nolan-verse? A plot device. Ok, that wasn’t very nice, but he and Fox spend most of their time coming up with “realistic” ways for Bruce to get his tech, case a joint, and avoid starvation. He might like them, even love them, but they’re this weird combination of father-figure and employee. In any case they aren’t “equal” the way friends need to be, especially for someone with such a strong personality as Bruce.
Are we seriously saying here, that in the right hands, they CANt include “Dick grayson” because he was 1st dammit) as Robin? I find this ludicrous. Unfortunately, I do agree about the US homophobia being a contributing factor—
I want this movie Sooo bad. Perhaps an independant film maker can make a go of it? There seems to be equal prejudice coming from everyone about Robin. What/Why would Nolan make those comments about this character if he didnt think Robin was an inherent part of what makes Batman so great? This is where we disagree completely.
I spent a large part of DKR imagining the introduction of Dick Grayson (who’s just as easily part of the “dark” Bat-verse as Tim is, after all). I don’t get the problems with Robin, but that’s probably because the Bat-family has always been my favorite thing in the comics. I know a lot of people, Nolan included, like to think that if you add a kid it suddenly makes no sense, but I think they could add Dick’s story easily enough, ending it before he actually became Robin (like at the oath) and later on just have a kid with superbadass ninja skills which would be fairly cool to watch. I understand not everybody would want to do that, but I don’t think it’s any more impossible to do than Batman himself, who often looks a little silly in his outfit even in the “serious” movies.
I think the inherent problem is how people view kids. If you look at the way Damian is being perceived, even though he’s trained by the League of Assassins, people still get all up in arms because he’s only ten, darn it. So aside from the homophobic problems, I think it’s hard for movie watchers (who, again, may not be comic readers) to believe a boy that young to be that skilled. And furthermore, that an older man, such as Batman, would want him by his side. But again, if handled properly, it could be really good! I keep hope alive.
If they were to bring in Dick, I would want it to be with him coming into the next film and at the end he begins his training, and at the beginning of the one after that, he’s about to complete it.
I could live with that. In both movies so far they have this random little boy with which the audience is supposed to identify emotionally. Why can’t that random kid be DG? He wouldn’t have to Robin right away, I can accept that it would be way too rushed, but he could be a tiny proto-Oracle who helps Alfred keep up the cave, do a bit of research, and practice the ‘bat-skills’ with Bruce intending him to be the next Batman when he retires. But when he’s (much) older he starts sneaking out on his own, rebelling against the whole ‘bat-mindset’ as the brighter Robin.
In all the adaptations so far, Dick Grayson has been played by an actor at least old enough for college. That makes any immature quirks in the portrayal all the more annoying, as well as making the character necessarily more sexual.
But if Dick Grayson were portrayed by a younger actor in his early teens, as in the original comics, that might bring out the father-son aspect of the characters’ relationship. Dick could act immature without seeming so bratty. And there would be dramatic tension (as in the Dark Victory graphic novel) as Bruce Wayne tries to figure out this orphaned boy’s place in his life. Of course, that would have to be one hell of a younger actor.
Late to party girl is here with her two cents, and an apology for being late
I think they you can make a good Batman and Robin movie, I think you just have to remember not to jump in the deep end with it. The movie shouldn’t begin with the creation of Robin, Boy Wonder, it ends with that. It begin with a scared little boy who watched his parents die and over the course of two hours Batman/Bruce and Dick interact and build a father/son-esque relationship while both are separately searching for Dick’s parent’s murderer because Nolan-Batman wouldn’t just let a kid work with him.
It’s also important that Dick not be an adult or older teenager. He has to be a kid, because that’s what connects them. And because a teenager or adult can understand death and has developed ways to cope with tragedy that doesn’t include dressing up like a bat. But most importantly because an adult won’t need Bruce, and that’s what Robin is for: he brings humanity back to Batman because in a city full of people who need Batman, Dick Grayson needs Bruce and Bruce needs to needed. Which is why I think he would be great in the next movie. Batman has just lost all the important ties he had to the world outside his head, what better time to introduce the character whose very purpose is to be that link, after all as the comics so like to remind us, Batman needs a Robin. Too bad Nolan seems to disagree.
You make some really good points. I think if they actually did make the movie, it would go over OK, just not necessarily with all “fans”. But then again, you can’t please all of the people all of the time.